Remembering TCPaul, 2016-2019

government pensions...how good are they??

Getting 70K-100K after 30 years in service...hummmmm....must mrlollipop01/21/19
You need to specify that you mean state government. The feds thirdtierlaw01/21/19
Wealthy state and municipal*** Here, let me show you: wearyattorney01/21/19
Still not following how taxing capital income at the same ra bangbus01/21/19
Non-sequitur. I don’t see why taxes as a whole need to go wearyattorney01/21/19
Interesting, but if you sort the chart by pension amount and wutwutwut01/22/19
A law school favorite apples to orange comparison. The ap wearyattorney01/23/19
But the largest pensions usually go to high-level administra therewillbeblood01/26/19
I don't believe you mrlollipop01/22/19
State doesn't offer that anymore either. I just get a 401a fettywap01/21/19
You need to move to a real state. imoothereforeim01/21/19
Jig is up on many of these gigs. The general public know wha greenhorn01/21/19
Ahhhhh... this is true (for many jobs), but you miss one ver wearyattorney01/21/19
you are assuming those pensions wont get a haircut. they wil whiteguyinchina01/22/19
Wearyattorney, you do have a good point. Compared to yestery greenhorn01/22/19
City of LA and SoCal utilities still pay 100% of heath insur imoothereforeim01/22/19
TITCR. wearyattorney01/23/19
"you are assuming those pensions wont get a haircut. they wi imoothereforeim01/22/19
how can you say this will never happen? what are pensions fu whiteguyinchina01/22/19
There will be no meaningful backlash. You have to under wearyattorney01/23/19
TIT2CR. wearyattorney01/23/19
well, not sure i agree but thanks for the post whiteguyinchina01/23/19
You too. How do you see these things getting cut when they wearyattorney01/23/19
It seems to me that people here who identify as some sort of tina01/26/19
There’s no shortage of skills that created these compensat wearyattorney01/26/19
Come on, there is absolutely an adverse position between the therewillbeblood01/26/19
To the extent there is adversity, it’s not linked to the v wearyattorney01/26/19
I don't think so, even future pension benefits have current therewillbeblood01/26/19
There many ways to get around that. For example, californi imoothereforeim01/26/19
They can absolutely make atrociously bad long term decisions wearyattorney01/27/19



mrlollipop (Jan 21, 2019 - 2:31 am)

Getting 70K-100K after 30 years in service...hummmmm....must feel great

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thirdtierlaw (Jan 21, 2019 - 10:12 am)

You need to specify that you mean state government. The feds aren't getting anything close to that.

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wearyattorney (Jan 21, 2019 - 11:04 am)

Wealthy state and municipal***

Here, let me show you:

https://projects.newsday.com/databases/long-island/pensions-2017/


Those are pensions, not salaries. Now let’s increase taxes on “rich” big law minions and other similarly situated wage slaves to the tune of over 50 percent.

Billionaires and rich public servants equals the real constituency of the Democratic Party.

This is why the cost of living is increasing dramatically along the coasts too, but these pigs want to tax the “rich” to get theirs, and they’ll use class envy and identity politics to do so.

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bangbus (Jan 21, 2019 - 11:40 am)

Still not following how taxing capital income at the same rate as ordinary income is actually a tax on the poor, but not the rich.

Need u to expand on that thx

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wearyattorney (Jan 21, 2019 - 1:19 pm)

Non-sequitur. I don’t see why taxes as a whole need to go up so 42 year old retirees can make 250k pensions. (Btw, the cops collecting those pensions are hardcore rhino repubs, a testament to human nature.)

I’m with you on taxing capital income at the ordinary rate, but you know how these things go when Dems and Rhinos get together. The compromise will be taxes going up on private sector employees battling it out in the global economy, and the reason taxes have to go up in the first place is because of corruption like the pension garbage I cited (which pales in comparison to what is going on at the Federal level).

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wutwutwut (Jan 22, 2019 - 12:34 pm)

Interesting, but if you sort the chart by pension amount and scroll, there are about 8,000 entries out of 837,000 entries which exceed 100K per year on their pensions. So, call it 1% or so, or getting close to 2% if you use the data at top, which says 410K pensioners. (Not sure why there'd be over 800K entries to cover 410K people).

In any event, a small minority get pensions over 100K.

And the average looks to be about 25K.

So your chances of having ended up being a rich NY pensioner were about your chances of hitting and keeping biglaw through partner.

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wearyattorney (Jan 23, 2019 - 12:16 am)

A law school favorite apples to orange comparison.

The applicant pool for biglaw is not the same as the applicant pool for people competing for the six figure pensions. The NYPD does not require a four year degree, the same for sanitation (and the same for the other lucrative jobs).

We can sit here and pretend that a military veteran with a 170 LSAT and T14 law degree is the same as someone with a 2 year associate degree from the local community college or we can be realistic about what’s what. The former would get the six figure pension if he or she wasn’t brainwashed to think there’s no money in government work and that the private sector is where it’s at. The biglaw guy or gal is going to be chewed out in 4-7 years with most of his or her money going to loans, taxes, and rent in the areas where the big law jobs are, and he or she will likely never earn anything approaching a biglaw salary again. From thereon, it will likely be thunder dome until 50ish, where perma underemployment and unemployment kicks in. If this person joined the civil service in the right part of the country, he or she would (and that’s with a capital “W”) get the six figure job and six figure pension and said person would (and that’s again with a capital “W”) get another job after the civil service (like security or some sort of thing).

Is someone going to Cooley a lock to get that? No (but it’s possible given the applicant pool). Is anyone admitted to a top 100 law school (let alone top 14) a lock? Almost certainly.

Also, I’m not sure the above database has all of the pensions by municipality, ie some are omitted based on the degree of state vs municipal contribution.

I would wager the 50-75k pensions are extremely common (more than a quarter of the government work force of NYS and associated municipalities). You would need several million dollars in a 401k to draw that, and that’s when you are 60 something, not 40 something. Even 25k if residual income probably pairs to about a 500k 401k (which is subject to fluctuations).

We can do the same analysis for Cali, Mass, NJ, or Illinois.

The answer is the same: go rich municipal government or don’t complain when the 21st century economy burries you.

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therewillbeblood (Jan 26, 2019 - 7:29 pm)

But the largest pensions usually go to high-level administrators, not rank-and-file. There's a reason the top pension earners in most states list public hospital systems as their employer -- they're MDs with decades of management experience, and the pensions were almost certainly used as a carrot to keep them where they are when they could get more salary from the private sector.

A 50k-75k pension really doesn't seem that outrageous to me if they put in the time. The point of pension funds is if they're adequately funded as they go on then there shouldn't be a major issue in meeting the obligations; your anger should be aimed at government officials who don't fund enough rather than the people earning the benefits.

Also, and anti-pension rants almost always forget this -- in a lot of places government workers don't get social security. Not the case for NY I believe, but in a lot of places it is the case.

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mrlollipop (Jan 22, 2019 - 1:50 am)

I don't believe you

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fettywap (Jan 21, 2019 - 10:42 am)

State doesn't offer that anymore either. I just get a 401a

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imoothereforeim (Jan 21, 2019 - 11:23 am)

You need to move to a real state.

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greenhorn (Jan 21, 2019 - 9:22 pm)

Jig is up on many of these gigs. The general public know what’s going on and are not happy. I live in the area where that Newsday article notes the crazy pensions and can tell you that the new State/County/Town employees are no longer getting nearly the same retirement perks or even other benefits. Most pay into their healthcare and have retirement plans similar to the fed structure.

It used to be great, but not so much anymore. My neighbor retired with two pensions and was named in Newsday. He did 20 years in Sanitation, retired and then 20 years in “Parks and Recreation.” His pensions are more than a big law salary for a 2nd/3rd year. His son though is in the “tier 6” retirement system. 1.1 or so percent for every year of service of your average final salary (without overtime) and the minimum age to retire is 58 or so.

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wearyattorney (Jan 21, 2019 - 9:30 pm)

Ahhhhh... this is true (for many jobs), but you miss one very nuanced point. When ITE2 happens, that tier 6 employee is going to be killing it relative to the rest of the population, including the laid off big law associate that isn’t going to ever hit his second year salary again, and that biglaw associate will be paying for the Tier 6’s landing spot because he or she is rich and what not.

We are declining as a nation. The coupe de gras is in place 1) labor surplus by immigration and globalization, 2) regulatory capture of the government by the entities to be regulated and 3) (for our residence manic commies) a tax shift from capital to labor.

That Tier 6 package is frozen in time, as our liberal friends demand more immigration and more globalization, which drives wages down further and increase asset prices as foreigners come in to buy stuff here, and our rhino friends define any attempt to place a tax burden on capital gains, inheritances, etc., people working in the private sector now are going to be clobbered further. That tier 6 employee is going to be exempt from all of it.

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whiteguyinchina (Jan 22, 2019 - 6:23 am)

you are assuming those pensions wont get a haircut. they will.

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greenhorn (Jan 22, 2019 - 12:02 pm)

Wearyattorney, you do have a good point. Compared to yesteryears pensions which were formulated 30 years ago, the tier 6 is seemingly a terrible, but in the future, who knows. Every pension penny will be salivated and admired as will a decent and affordable health plan.

Whiteguy, I’m not so sure about the pensions getting much of a haircut. These civil service groups hold an incredible amount of power - particularly in the blue states. Politicians would sooner further bleed the tax payers, rather than upset the civil servant groups. I’m seeing this in Nassau County right now and how the county executive is trying to push property taxes even higher.

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imoothereforeim (Jan 22, 2019 - 12:41 pm)

City of LA and SoCal utilities still pay 100% of heath insurance, for the entire family, forever.

It is still awesome.

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wearyattorney (Jan 23, 2019 - 12:17 am)

TITCR.

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imoothereforeim (Jan 22, 2019 - 12:19 pm)

"you are assuming those pensions wont get a haircut. they will."

They won't.

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whiteguyinchina (Jan 22, 2019 - 4:36 pm)

how can you say this will never happen? what are pensions funded on? contributions and investments /in US treasuries?/ if funds start to run out, i think they raise property taxes first for local pensions. can likely raise income tax for state pensions. then you will have a backlash and a this isnt fair movement. and for a place like CA which has a terrible govt pension problem, how much more can you squeeze out?

the civ service may be better off, but when the big crunch comes, the fat will come off.

outrage stories are easy to do to turn the narrative, and look how people think about the fed govt shutdown now. you can really get a mob going against the civ service lobby.

just saying, never say never. the fat will come off. this will be a bipartisan issue so it cannot be played politically. like TARP or 9.11.

also look at other countries and what happened to civil service pensions. say greece.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/may/07/greek-debt-crisis-jobs

which had arguably a strong civ service lobby as well




on another note, i do not think its immigration which has ruined america baba

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wearyattorney (Jan 23, 2019 - 12:28 am)

There will be no meaningful backlash.

You have to undersdand the sheer arrogance, greed and vanity of these nice liberal and rhino public servants. They aren’t comparing themselves to a Google Engineer, an Amazon midlevel manager, a biglaw associate or a junior analyst at an investment bank. They are comparing themselves to the hedge fund manager, the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, the owner of a large scale business, Michael Jordan, Lebron James, etc.

They don’t care that 150k pension with no liability, total job security, etc places them in the .01 percent of working people. If you bring up that their demands are unreasonable, they’ll deflect and tell you hedgefund operators make billions and what’s a 150k a year pension. AOC and Bernie will come out touting these public servants as making the ultimate sacrifice and use class envy to Marshall the bottom of the population, which at this point is utterly clueless as to what has happened to them, to vote accordingly. The rhinos will come in and say do whatever you want, just don’t raise taxes on inheritance and capital gains, and there you’ll have it: pediatric neurosurgeon getting taxes at 75 percent to pay for a teachers six figure pension in Cali.

There will be no collapse, just a gradual, but dramatic, reduction in the standard of living, and the cancer will spread to the whole country. (The funny thing is that these parasites are going to move to the last parts of the country where a private sector minion has a puncher’s chance, with their tax exempt pensions, and turn them blue too. This way there is no escape).

Regarding Greece... lol... comparing a third world nation to the nation with the world’s reserve currency is laughable.

The only appropriate comparison between this country and a European country, is that in 50-100 years, when the post war era is completely forgotten, people will know the government is the path to a modicum of prosperity. Like Boomers told their kids to go to law school or business school or some other garbage, the next generation is going to lay it down right: everyone knows you work for the city government if you are smart. The statistics are bearing this out, if you look at the profiles of the people applying and getting the high paid municipal jobs: they are beginning to actually be better than their private sector counterparts, and that’s going to accelerate.

When that happens, this country will no longer have the world reserve currency and it will be a hell for everyone (like Greece), but the government workers will still be better off than everyone else.

Ben Franklin did let us know what would happen when the people figure out they can vote themselves money, and here we are.

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wearyattorney (Jan 23, 2019 - 12:17 am)

TIT2CR.

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whiteguyinchina (Jan 23, 2019 - 1:37 am)

well, not sure i agree but thanks for the post

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wearyattorney (Jan 23, 2019 - 4:16 am)

You too. How do you see these things getting cut when they are guaranteed by state constitutions? Even Detroit is paying out. Worst comes to worse the feds will come and bail things out.

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tina (Jan 26, 2019 - 1:56 am)

It seems to me that people here who identify as some sort of right wing don't approve of pensions. Let's not forget, all pensions were basically negotiated deals - we need ur skillz, pls work for us, we will pay you $$$ plus pension $$$ in future if you stick around. So I am confused, why is this bad. Are you saying deals are to be broken any time it's not good for you anymore after the other party performed? Curious, because I didn't get that part out of lolskool.

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wearyattorney (Jan 26, 2019 - 3:20 am)

There’s no shortage of skills that created these compensation packages. There’s no adverse position between the people negotiating the salaries like in private enterprise. The salaries and pensions are bribes for votes and donations. Additionally, the cost (and it’s a heavy cost) is born by everyone else.

Now, I advocate on an individual level that this is the kind of thing people should pursue, but those are the facts.

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therewillbeblood (Jan 26, 2019 - 7:30 pm)

Come on, there is absolutely an adverse position between the people negotiating these things. Public sector labor negotiations are famously brutal.

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wearyattorney (Jan 26, 2019 - 9:58 pm)

To the extent there is adversity, it’s not linked to the value of the labor being provided, but to political consequences associated with the negotiations. That is a very different dynamic.

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therewillbeblood (Jan 26, 2019 - 10:39 pm)

I don't think so, even future pension benefits have current economic impacts. Even though state governments don't have to follow ERISA, they can't underfund the pensions too much, so what they negotiate has to be factored into the next budget.

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imoothereforeim (Jan 26, 2019 - 10:43 pm)

There many ways to get around that. For example, california just use fake numbers (spells as L I Es).

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wearyattorney (Jan 27, 2019 - 6:33 am)

They can absolutely make atrociously bad long term decisions using any number of scam techniques, including unrealistic long term performance of various investment vehicles.

Pensions commitments are permanent, they don’t take any account of long term structural changes that can occur in an economy, like globalization and mass illegal immigration, and the people making the decisions don’t care, they only care about tomorrow’s election and nothing else.

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