Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

No Dogs or J.D.s Allowed

Someone mentioned doing a thread on this earlier (JD disadva wolfman09/10/14
I'll start: you're one of those social justice types, and yo wolfman09/10/14
And not two sentences later: "The Urban Justice Center is an willworkforfood09/10/14
Wow, that website should not exist. It leads people to belie jorgedeclaro09/10/14
Found one: http://www.bullhornreach.com/job/23 6086_parale dropout09/10/14
Excellent... "NO JDs please as they will not be considered." wolfman09/10/14
Legal Assistant / Office Admin - Family Law (Downtown Seattl ichininosan09/10/14
"No JDs or attorneys" for litigation paralegal position in B ibrslave09/10/14
The analyst one is my favorite. "No JDs" is the very first b onehell09/11/14
At least they're being honest about it. I hate wasting 20 mi taway09/10/14
"No JDs" for assistant to partner position at entertainment ibrslave09/10/14
Is there another field were you see this kind of discriminat dropout09/10/14
I don't think there is another field that suffers from an im wolfman09/10/14
I don't think so. One of my former friends who has a PhD in elitttist09/10/14
"JDs will not be considered" for docketing coordinator posit ibrslave09/10/14
For some reason, that exclamation point is what really gets kman09/10/14
http://www.jdunderground.com/jobs/t hread.php?threadId=74379 heythere09/10/14
Someone should really start a JD Advantage blog. No heythere09/10/14
This is by far the most toxic aspect of the scam. The federa gribble09/10/14
I'm confused as to why you prefer to be ignored rather than kman09/10/14
Because instead of just ignoring him - leading him to think unclebubba09/21/14
http://www.legal-aid.org/media/1771 31/para_casehandler_hlu.p heythere09/10/14
I love this one! No attorneys... or law graduates... or J.D. dropout09/11/14
The legal aid ones are actually LESS egregious IMHO. That's onehell09/11/14
Unions.... looking out for the "little guy." eddiemunster09/11/14
How about this one posted in the other thread? I really l heythere09/21/14
No JDs please for publishing job. http://www.mediabistro.co heythere09/10/14
No JDs please for legal researcher job. http://jobs.oodle.c heythere09/10/14
Wow that's something. If there's anything a JD actually can bdogg09/11/14
"It's also something most normal people would have no idea h onehell09/11/14
Who else would have exposure to Lexis and Westlaw but a law eddiemunster09/11/14
No JDs please for contracts manager job. :http://jobline.ac heythere09/10/14
Barn for Rent - $2000 (Kenosha County East of I94) http: 123fakestreet09/10/14
Wow that place is sweet. zeta09/11/14
So other than the federal government, do any other employers kman09/10/14
Because it's hard to fill a(at least) 3 year resume gap. onehell09/11/14
No doubt, these are pretty bad, but at what point do you guy pherc09/10/14
Some have been doing this since 1995 http://articles.chic heythere09/10/14
1995 - that's depressing. But have to wonder if the person w eddiemunster09/11/14
Others have been doing this since 2007 http://www.ilw.com heythere09/11/14
Has anyone considered the fact that these postings may be th smallyer09/11/14
Yes. I also think they demonstrate that a significant nu spaghetti09/11/14
What you learn in law school doesn't mean you have the skill nowayjose09/11/14
Law firms have never been keen on hiring paralegals for a va eddiemunster09/11/14
Sadly, if I was a company wanting to hire an assistant/paral willworkforfood09/11/14
^^ This. If you don't have prior work experience or a useful nowayjose09/11/14
in a just world willworkforfood's last paragraph would be co ricegol09/11/14
I know I would have appreciated something like that in the b willworkforfood09/11/14
Right. I wonder what would happen if a person who'd been a g onehell09/11/14
"the scamdeans love to claim that you can do anything with a eddiemunster09/11/14
paralegals can't steal clients. 123fakestreet09/11/14
No Jds please for secretary-floater opening. http://www.w heythere09/12/14
No Jds please for security and controls associate opening. heythere09/12/14
This has been going on for years. Nothing new. tobeornottobe09/12/14
Great job everyone! Somehow we gotta get this thread publici lazlo09/13/14
It's a huge myth. The fact that secretarial positions at la heythere09/13/14
Ha, ha! "General medicine practice seeks registered nurse t ibrslave09/14/14
I would love to see that on Craigslist. The ensuing meltdow heythere09/14/14
This has been going on for years but law schools continue to ibrslave09/13/14
A couple of interesting thoughts. Legal secretaries were gr boomeresq09/13/14
I think with any profession, but with the law especially, th stevelaw09/14/14
"What goes on in the minds of potential law employers? "Well heythere09/14/14
Haha want to know what will happen if someone takes your adv gribble09/22/14
One other thing that may be stopping law firms from hiring j boomeresq09/14/14
Stevelaw, I totally agree with you. I'm just a solo practiti cranky09/14/14
Stevelaw, Cranky, I see your point -- but as a small firm ow mjrvegas09/15/14
I got tired of people saying "somebody should make a JD Disa downfell09/15/14
http://www.simplyhired.com/job/para legal-entry-level-job/e-m heythere09/15/14
"Candidate should not have a JD" for a legal and compliance wolfman09/20/14
https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/lg l/46753 Posted: 2014-0 heythere09/21/14



wolfman (Sep 10, 2014 - 1:37 pm)

Someone mentioned doing a thread on this earlier (JD disadvantage jobs or something similar) and I thought it was a swell idea. So, here it is. If you come across a job that EXPLICITLY and SPECIFICALLY excludes people from consideration because they have a law degree/J.D., please post it here.

I think this is quite law-related, in that it serves to acquaint prospective/current law students with the real deal on "JD-advantage" jobs, but if the powers that be feel otherwise, please move the thread elsewhere...

The main point here is that, while J.D.-preferred jobs do exist, there are also jobs where you are specifically excluded from consideration because you have a J.D.

Of course, this neglects the gazillion job openings that never state so explicitly, but in reality will never interview/hire "a lawyer," just because he's "a lawyer," and never mind other qualifications or experience... but that topic has been adequately discussed elsewhere, for example: http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread.php?threadId=25556

This is for places/roles that flat-out TELL you that they will shred your resume BECAUSE of your ever-so-valuable-and-versatile legal education. Thanks for playing!

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wolfman (Sep 10, 2014 - 1:38 pm)

I'll start: you're one of those social justice types, and you wanna to work with mentally ill people, maybe prisoners who have mental illnesses, and are about to be released? And have a law degree? Surely these soft-hearted social-service non-profit people won't hold your legal background against you? Why would they?

Haha, no soup for you! "No J.D. applicants please." They are soft-hearted, after all - they did say "please."

http://www.idealist.org/view/job/jNSpkMGkjWSP/

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willworkforfood (Sep 10, 2014 - 3:33 pm)

And not two sentences later: "The Urban Justice Center is an equal opportunity employer."

lulz

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jorgedeclaro (Sep 10, 2014 - 5:41 pm)

Wow, that website should not exist. It leads people to believe that there is such thing as a paying public interest job that can be obtained just by responding to an internet job post.

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dropout (Sep 10, 2014 - 1:53 pm)

Found one:

http://www.bullhornreach.com/job/236086_paralegal-new-york-ny

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wolfman (Sep 10, 2014 - 1:58 pm)

Excellent... "NO JDs please as they will not be considered."

Thanks, lol school.

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ichininosan (Sep 10, 2014 - 2:01 pm)

Legal Assistant / Office Admin - Family Law (Downtown Seattle)

"Attorneys and/or JD candidates kindly do not reply."

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/lgl/4660023811.html

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ibrslave (Sep 10, 2014 - 2:26 pm)

"No JDs or attorneys" for litigation paralegal position in Boston. http://www.indeed.com/viewjob?cmp=Campbell-Campbell-Edwards-%26-Conroy&t=Litigation+Paralegal&jk=502be716537c9239&sjdu=QwrRXKrqZ3CNX5W-O9jEvd871Zk_KiYqZLfF_bD8DorUBTm0Uhobck8zmFK583o1UlLeuerPZQW5wAfnj21q8g.

"No JDs" for compliance analyst position in NY. http://www.robertwalters-usa.com/banking-financial-services/jobs/compliance/755064-compliance-analyst.html?utm_source=Indeed&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=Indeed.

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onehell (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:03 pm)

The analyst one is my favorite. "No JDs" is the very first bullet under "desired skills." In other words, the thing we want most in the world is for you NOT to have gone to law school.

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taway (Sep 10, 2014 - 2:31 pm)

At least they're being honest about it. I hate wasting 20 minutes filling out a nonlegal application that I know probably won't be read because I'm a lawyer. Putting "No JD" in the ad saves everyone alot of time, even though the prejudice doesn't make sense.

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ibrslave (Sep 10, 2014 - 2:39 pm)

"No JDs" for assistant to partner position at entertainment law firm in Los Angeles. http://www.4entertainmentjobs.com/jobs/105838?utm_source=simplyhired&utm_campaign=simplyhired&utm_medium=RXcpcLA&rx_job=17818658&rx_source=simplyhired&rx_campaign=simplyhired15&rx_medium=cpc. I am sure they would make an exception for a Chapman Law graduate with a certificate in entertainment law. http://www.chapman.edu/law/academic-programs/emphasis-areas/entertainment-law.aspx.

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dropout (Sep 10, 2014 - 2:57 pm)

Is there another field were you see this kind of discrimination? I've never seen an ad requesting that No MBA's or no PHd's need apply. I've seen ads that said no graduates please as this is an internship for a current student but that is different.

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wolfman (Sep 10, 2014 - 4:07 pm)

I don't think there is another field that suffers from an imbalance between actual professional opportunities on one hand and the number of graduates on the other to the extent law does... also, no other profession is hated and despised by people outside it to the extent law is... these two factors probably explain much.

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elitttist (Sep 10, 2014 - 5:34 pm)

I don't think so. One of my former friends who has a PhD in English got a cushy marketing management job after years of being put through the wringer in academia.

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ibrslave (Sep 10, 2014 - 4:02 pm)

"JDs will not be considered" for docketing coordinator position at large D.C. law firm. http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/lgl/4639457144.html.

"No JD's or Attorneys will be considered!" for numerous positions at a D.C. intellectual property law firm. http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/doc/lgl/4660253317.html.

"Please, no JDs" for HR Generalist-Legal position in Palo Alto, CA. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/hum/4661357146.html. Seriously, no JDs for a HR position that requires knowledge of state and federal employment law!

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kman (Sep 10, 2014 - 10:45 pm)

For some reason, that exclamation point is what really gets me.

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 5:58 pm)

http://www.jdunderground.com/jobs/thread.php?threadId=74379

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 6:15 pm)

Someone should really start a JD Advantage blog.



No JD please for paralegal job.
http://nektpro.com/applyjob/11425597/2711
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/lgl/4635986213.html
http://www.simplyhired.com/job/legal-assistant-job/global-employment-solutions-inc/v6ojlsti4a


No JD please for HR job.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/hum/4661357146.html

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gribble (Sep 10, 2014 - 7:39 pm)

This is by far the most toxic aspect of the scam. The federal government won't hire JDs either. Pre-recession they used to, but around 2009 and onwards they pretty much stopped. It used to be JD could substitute for experience and there was a wide range of jobs USAjobs would advertise where presumably the law degree was an asset. I doubt many were getting jobs through there, but I assume some JDs did get in before the flood made the Feds reconsider.

For a lot of positions that don't even make a comment on JDs, sometimes they will contact applicants telling them they aren't looking for JDs. That happened to me before. It was amazing that people feel a need to contact an applicant rather than just ignore them. That is the stain of the JD.

Of course if too many JDs apply they then in future postings will include that language.

It always makes me laugh just how bad it is. I remember I wound up just putting "paralegal" for a few of my previous law firm jobs. And of course taking the JD off entirely. Then just say you did retail after college if it comes up (it doesn't though) or admin assistant jobs. Apparently those are more prestigious than a JD and legal experience.

I can't understand why people still go to law school. To give yourself a decent shot at success you need to really be T5. And even then, the actual practice just is so soul crushing I still don't think it's worth it.

There should literally only be 5 law schools in the country. I truly believe that.

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kman (Sep 10, 2014 - 10:47 pm)

I'm confused as to why you prefer to be ignored rather than at least receive some response?

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unclebubba (Sep 21, 2014 - 4:11 am)

Because instead of just ignoring him - leading him to think he may have a chance in another opening, they took the trouble and paid the postage to tell him, that they would prefer not to hear from him again - like ever.

They should have saved the postage and opened their minds. They would've been up 50 cents and have gained a stable and worthwhile employee to boot

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 9:34 pm)

http://www.legal-aid.org/media/177131/para_casehandler_hlu.pdf

Paralegal Casehandler
The Legal Aid Society has a position for a Paralegal II that is immediately available to be based
in the Health Law Unit. The Health Law Unit operates a Statewide helpline and provides direct
legal services to health care consumers and beneficiaries from all five boroughs of New York
City. We help clients with the following health issues: Medicaid; Managed Care (Medicaid, . .

Please note that attorneys, law graduates and J.D.s will not be considered for this position.

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dropout (Sep 11, 2014 - 11:06 am)

I love this one! No attorneys... or law graduates... or J.D.s... they should really have stated that if you have ever set foot in a law school then you are tainted and we in no way will consider you for employment here at the LEGAL AID SOCIETY!!!

PS - if you really wanted to "help people" with their legal issues you shouldn't have gone to law school dummy.

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onehell (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:07 pm)

The legal aid ones are actually LESS egregious IMHO. That's because, as you saw in another post above, a lot of those jobs are actually unionized and the contract would of course contemplate the possibility of an employer classifying a lawyer as something else to pay them less, and so hiring a lawyer for a non-lawyer job opens an employer up to the accusation that you are in violation of the collective bargaining agreement.

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eddiemunster (Sep 11, 2014 - 2:44 pm)

Unions.... looking out for the "little guy."

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heythere (Sep 21, 2014 - 9:56 am)

How about this one posted in the other thread?

I really like how "Cite checking and Blue Booking skills" and "Strong research and writing skills" are required so that they can "Will assist with pleadings, discovery, exhibits, and trial materials." That used to be a junior attorney's work. Now it's paralegal work. It says something about the business pressures that attorneys are under, the quality of new attorney legal education relative to paralegal education, the general trend toward devolving work to the lowest paid person capable of doing it, or all of the above.


http://job-openings.monster.com/monster/8d2c485a-adb0-437a-8329-2f7db9b52a46

Paralegal-Family law
NRI - Virginia, VA
Posted: 8/22/2014

Direct Hire Family Law Paralegal sought for a well known Northern VA. Salary will go up to 75K DOE.

Experience Required:
Bachelors Degree or equivalent in Paralegal Studies or related field or Paralegal Certification.

Minimum of 5 years' experience in Family Law Practice. NO JD's considered.

Must Have:

5 years experience as a Paralegal
Paralegal Certification
Cite checking and Blue Booking skills
GPA of 3.5 and above
Strong research and writing skills

NO JD's considered.

Will assist with pleadings, discovery, exhibits, and trial materials.



NO JD's considered.

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 9:39 pm)

No JDs please for publishing job.
http://www.mediabistro.com/cobrand/abmw/joblistings/jobprint.asp?joid=106577&page=9

"Desirable job qualifications include previous experience conducting contract drafting and training. Know-how and previous experience with book publishing contracts also highly desired. J.D.s will not be considered for this role."

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 9:42 pm)

No JDs please for legal researcher job.
http://jobs.oodle.com/detail/legal-researcher-downtown/3608477644-manhattan-newyork-ny

"Must have research background using Bloomberg, IntelliConnect, KnowledgeMosaic, Lexis, Westlaw, RIA Checkpoint, and other legislative and EDGAR filing resources.JDs will not be considered."

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bdogg (Sep 11, 2014 - 8:46 am)

Wow that's something. If there's anything a JD actually can do right out of school it's legal research. That's like the one practical class you have in school. It's also something most normal people would have no idea how to go about even doing.

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onehell (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:18 pm)

"It's also something most normal people would have no idea how to go about even doing."

Meh.. Legal Research and writing is what, a one-semester class? That's ten weeks. Now, subtract the writing portion, which this job doesn't need. It's really just specialized Google searching, plus understanding the different jurisdictions and what's persuasive, binding and unpublished/unciteable, and then learning how to Sheparadize and why it's important to do so.

So, while it's true that regular people don't know how to do legal research, modern (search-engine based) research can probably be learned by a good liberal arts grad in a month or so.

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eddiemunster (Sep 11, 2014 - 2:45 pm)

Who else would have exposure to Lexis and Westlaw but a law student?

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 9:46 pm)

No JDs please for contracts manager job.
:http://jobline.acc.com/jobs/6273181/contracts-manager-office-of-the-general-counsel

"seeking highly-motivated Contracts Manager to become a critical member of the Office of the General Counsel of a global NYSE company."

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123fakestreet (Sep 10, 2014 - 9:52 pm)

Barn for Rent - $2000 (Kenosha County East of I94)

http://racine.craigslist.org/grd/4603637038.html

"No dogs allowed on the property, no exceptions!!!"

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zeta (Sep 11, 2014 - 11:02 am)

Wow that place is sweet.

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kman (Sep 10, 2014 - 10:49 pm)

So other than the federal government, do any other employers make you sign under oath that you're fully disclosing everything? If not, why not just leave it off?

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onehell (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:19 pm)

Because it's hard to fill a(at least) 3 year resume gap.

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pherc (Sep 10, 2014 - 11:34 pm)

No doubt, these are pretty bad, but at what point do you guys get tired of doing this?

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heythere (Sep 10, 2014 - 11:42 pm)

Some have been doing this since 1995

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-12-26/features/9512260048_1_dear-ann-landers-lawyers-grandma

"These Days, Lawyers Need Not Apply
December 26, 1995|By Ann Landers.

Dear Ann Landers: I read with interest the letter from "Unemployed MBA/JD." I work in a law firm . . .

. . . We have received a large number of resumes from attorneys who are applying for paralegal positions. Their cover letters state that they have been trying to find positions without success and are willing to work as paralegals to get a foot in the door."

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eddiemunster (Sep 11, 2014 - 2:48 pm)

1995 - that's depressing. But have to wonder if the person would have better prospects by dropping the "JD" off of the JD/MBA and making something up about working retail for two years.

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heythere (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:10 am)

Others have been doing this since 2007

http://www.ilw.com/immigrationdaily/digest/2007,1031.shtm

Help Wanted: Immigration Professional
New York City - . . . seeks senior immigration specialist. Manage case files, prepare and process non-immigrant, employment-based immigrant petitions, and processing permanent residence applications. You will use Immigration Tracker software and have knowledge of the breadth of immigration procedures. Good writing and analytical skills required. . . . Excellent opportunity to learn all areas of immigration law for a dedicated professional. . . . No lawyers please.

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smallyer (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:15 am)

Has anyone considered the fact that these postings may be the result of a general consensus that JD's who cannot find jobs as lawyers do not make good employees? And that the consensus may be grounded in fact and true in most cases?

I would not hire a JD to work for me in anything other than an associate attorney role. JD Disadvantage. It's true.

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spaghetti (Sep 11, 2014 - 1:19 am)

Yes.

I also think they demonstrate that a significant number of JDs are applying. If that weren't the case, then I doubt they'd make it explicit.

They also demonstrate how a JD is a net negative in many, many cases. For instance, you'd think if you had a JD that you'd be considered for at least a paralegal position. You won't because they assume (correctly) that you're a failed atty and would leave for an atty position in a heartbeat.

People going to law school don't seem to always comprehend the fact that employers almost never want an attorney for non-attorney positions. It is probably the biggest and worst lie that law schools constantly and consistently repeat.

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nowayjose (Sep 11, 2014 - 10:23 am)

What you learn in law school doesn't mean you have the skill set to be a paralegal. JDs with a basic understanding of contract/con law or who can "think logically" don't necessarily have the same skills required to be a paralegal.

Can you file things with the court? Do you have a working knowledge of court deadlines? Or how to put together an appellate brief? Law school doesn't teach you those things. That's why there are paralegal schools and paralegal certificates. Everyone on here who acts so shocked that paralegal ads don't want JDs shouldn't be that surprised. It's a different role requiring different skills. If I was looking for a paralegal, the last thing I'd want is a law school grad trained to push back at me, bitter about havin to be a paralegal rather than an attorney and eager to quit the first chance they get.

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eddiemunster (Sep 11, 2014 - 2:50 pm)

Law firms have never been keen on hiring paralegals for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is they don't need their paralegal "playing lawyer" when they should be doing paralegal stuff, nothing more. Ditto for contracts managers/administrators - contracts is not law, odd as it sounds.

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willworkforfood (Sep 11, 2014 - 9:49 am)

Sadly, if I was a company wanting to hire an assistant/paralegal, I'd avoid JD's too :(

If a company wants to hire somebody who is partner material, they'll say so and they'll get the quality applications for that position. Any decently smart company isn't going to look for their next partner/exec via a strategy of putting out an employment listing for an assistant (although this is a bit ironic since apparently all partner/exec boomers started out in the mailroom *eye roll*).

If a company does want to hire a paralegal / paper pusher, it wants somebody who either (a) is perfectly content in life with remaining in that role for their whole professional career (hence why super-boomers will wax and wane over the demise of secretarial schools), or (b) a young person with only a bachelors who is perfectly content to remain in that role for the next few years because they believe they can/will improve their station by going to grad school later.

If I want a paralegal, I don't want that paralegal substantively editing my arguments and asking "where do I need to be 6 months to get a promotion and/or a raise?"

That being said, that doesn't wholly give a reason for why job listings like "trade compliance analyst" contain the "no JD's" qualifier (although it can explain it for certain jobs like that, e.g. a listing for a "trade compliance analyst" who's job it is to support trade compliance attorneys). Sadly, the reason for the no JD's qualification for jobs like the non-legal-support trade compliance analysts is probably because 90% of the applications flood in from people whos only semi-relevant qualification is the JD. The company doesn't want a generic JD, they want to look at the resume of the guy whos worked for two years in a trade compliance role. And in that respect, I think the "no JD's" qualifier really means "no only-JD's". I don't think the employer who put out said ad would hold as much against an applicant who had 2 years of trade compliance experience (in a non-lawyer role) but had a JD as well.

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nowayjose (Sep 11, 2014 - 10:26 am)

^^ This. If you don't have prior work experience or a useful undergrad, then obviously a JD by itself doesn't qualify you to be anything BUT a lawyer. That's the skill set you learn when you go to law school. An attorney's skill set is not the same as a compliance analyst's, not sure why people are so up in arms about that realization.

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ricegol (Sep 11, 2014 - 10:33 am)

in a just world willworkforfood's last paragraph would be copied into every glossy law school admissions brochure

the scamdeans love to claim that you can do anything with a versatile JD - making kids think that they are viable candidates for good non-attorney jobs with just a JD in hand

the "No JDs" meme from employers is really shorthand for "No K-JD liberal artists without any relevant education/experience beyond the JD"

the awful truth is that the JD is "versatile" only if you have other education/experience that makes you marketable

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willworkforfood (Sep 11, 2014 - 10:51 am)

I know I would have appreciated something like that in the brochure (perhaps more eloquently put though haha). Like most law students, I gradually learned that truth the hard way.

I was a prospective K-JD, and I got sucked into a T2 back in the day by the "international law" shills, and even interned for the UN in a non-legal role after my 1L. But I realized somewhere during the second semester of 1L that, outside a handful of jobs meant for the most qualified of YHS grads with relevant pre-law school work experience (and apparently that one class of 2007 grad on the cover of the brochure), studying "international law," in and of itself, qualified me for essentially nothing.

I transferred to a better law school and quickly tried to hit the ground running on a traditional attorney path. 5 years now after 1L, I've managed to salvage my situation a somewhat, but a lot of the damage was already done by my taking a non-legal position my 1L summer.

Ironic that the 'JD-advantage' hook ended up causing me more harm than good, and terrible that the people who made that glossy everything-is-awesome brochure knew that there was a very very good chance that it would.

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onehell (Sep 11, 2014 - 12:29 pm)

Right. I wonder what would happen if a person who'd been a great paralegal for 10 years, but who happened to have a JD, applied. I bet they'd have a good chance. Maybe even the JD would be a bonus despite the advertisement.

A JD **by itself** is worse than worthless for "law related" jobs, that's true. But a JD plus RELEVANT experience can be good, and can turn the JD from an albatross into perhaps even a bonus.

Law school is the ONLY professional school that has NO prerequisites and NO work experience requirement, and the bar is the ONLY professional license that has no work experience hours either. You can't become a fully, independently licensed doctor or CPA or social worker or really ANYTHING else without ever stepping foot in a real world office. But in law you can, and indeed most people DO. It's no wonder the credential is so worthless by itself. I have talked to other professionals and gotten absolute shock when they learn a lawyer can hang a shingle without having ever done a single hour of internship or clinical placement work.

So, perhaps even more vital than the advice not to go to law school is the advice to work for a couple of years first. Many people who follow it will end up not going once they have exposure to how demeaned lawyers are, but those who do still go will be in a much better position.

Of course, I got that advice too. But of course I ignored it. After college, it's just so darn easy to just bypass the whole "don't know what to do" thing, avoid being a boomerang kid loser, etc. But even if you still go, you've gotta develop some other skillset to either fall back on or add to the JD.

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eddiemunster (Sep 11, 2014 - 2:57 pm)

"the scamdeans love to claim that you can do anything with a versatile JD - making kids think that they are viable candidates for good non-attorney jobs with just a JD in hand"

True. The implicit assumption is that there exists people who did a lot and also have a JD, therefore the JD was an enabler. Uh, no. Those people HAPPENED to HAVE a JD, but in spite of that stain, they were able to accomplish bigger and much better things.
JD Disadvantage - still waiting for that blog, but this one is close: http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/02/jd-disadvantage.html

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123fakestreet (Sep 11, 2014 - 10:58 am)

paralegals can't steal clients.

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heythere (Sep 12, 2014 - 9:29 pm)

No Jds please for secretary-floater opening.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/jobs/JS_JobSearchDetail?jobid=35545317

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heythere (Sep 12, 2014 - 9:32 pm)

No Jds please for security and controls associate opening.
http://www.simplyhired.com/job/security-and-controls-associate-job/ciber/c4n2vmrtmb

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tobeornottobe (Sep 12, 2014 - 10:44 pm)

This has been going on for years. Nothing new.

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lazlo (Sep 13, 2014 - 12:33 am)

Great job everyone! Somehow we gotta get this thread publicized on TLS, OTLSS, TTR, ATL, wherever; killing the versatile JD myth dead once and for all will go a long way towards saving many 0Ls from making a terrible mistake.

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heythere (Sep 13, 2014 - 4:43 pm)

It's a huge myth. The fact that secretarial positions at law firms ask for "no jds please" means that in the past they must have gotten enough JD resumes for similar positions that simply sorting through them was a burden.

Pretty sad.

I can't imagine that vacancy announcements for engineering firms or medical offices have a similar disclaimer.

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ibrslave (Sep 14, 2014 - 6:41 pm)

Ha, ha! "General medicine practice seeks registered nurse to work with patients. MDs need not apply."

F#$K YOU LAW SCHOOL DEANS, ADMINISTRATORS, and PROFESSORS for causing us to be less than paraprofessional support staff.

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heythere (Sep 14, 2014 - 8:24 pm)

I would love to see that on Craigslist. The ensuing meltdown would be truly epic - culminating in head line on Breitbart, The Blaze, Fox News, blaming Obamacare, HHS, and AMA for ruining the once proud medical profession, handouts, sign of the economic times.

Meanwhile, since 1995 lawyers need not apply
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-12-26/features/9512260048_1_dear-ann-landers-lawyers-grandma

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ibrslave (Sep 13, 2014 - 10:17 am)

This has been going on for years but law schools continue to lie about the versatility of the JD, when in fact it is more often a scarlet letter for other jobs. I think that this information will be helpful for potential law students and hopefully the media. Maybe the media can cover this aspect of the scam and interview some law school administrators and professors (like Stephen Diamond or Steven Freedman) about the so-called versatility of the JD.

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boomeresq (Sep 13, 2014 - 5:59 pm)

A couple of interesting thoughts. Legal secretaries were great. I worshiped the ground they walked on. They answered the phone,did the billing, screened, calls, scheduled appointments, kept the calendars straight, and most important did all the typing. Since I am ancient, I went to law school in the computer actual workdays and the paper work was staggering in practice. Every piece of paper had to be typed from scratch and be done perfectly too. No copier. There were carbon sets to reverse and mess up. Secretaries were the best. I could focus on the clients and the actual work. I would ask and it would get done.

Then things and the economics charged drastically. I am very close to retirement now and basically waiting for medicare to kick in because I am working to pay for my health care and my husband's huge medical bills and the miserable costs and of healthcare. By this stage of the game, I would love to have several young lawyers to take over. However the economics are not there. Thank you Legal Zoom. Our bread and butter is gone, wills, simple contract, separation agreement, corporations all gone. All that is basically left are nasty divorces and some criminal work which gets to be less and less.
The recession of 2009 is still going on in these parts with no sign of recovery. Our clients worked in state hospitals, state schools and factories that are long gone never to return. The military is gone too.

As far as paralegals are concerned, I find them neither fish nor fowl. In a real estate practice they are good, but in other types of practices, secretaries could be far better at getting the grunt work out.

Another aside, I never learned to type. If you were going to college, high school actually discouraged it. I went to prep school geared to college acceptance. There was no cooking, sewing, shop or typing classes. I wish there had been. We missed out.

Another interesting item: before there were law schools, people read law in a law office with an older experienced attorney, kind of an apprenticeship. Anyone could take the bar in a number of states. No law school require. It used to be so in VT and ME and may still be. A really smart secretary could pass the bar and did so in the not too distant past.

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stevelaw (Sep 14, 2014 - 12:32 pm)

I think with any profession, but with the law especially, the key is to GET THE EXPERIENCE BEFORE YOU GET THE DEGREE.

The problem for newly minted JD holders is they are stuck in a trap where the law profession says, "You have a law degree now, so we can't hire you for a support position in a law office - oh but by the way, you're fresh out of school with no experience so we can't hire you to be a lawyer. You have no experience and we can't give you any either. Good luck."

With all the out of work JDs, established lawyers could save the profession by tossing some paralegal, office assistant, support type jobs to starving JD's. In fact, in most professions, aren't there usually some lower level jobs - i.e. rungs on the ladder that you have to climb until you get where everyone in your profession wants to be?

Not so in the law, you either be ready to practice upon graduation or you never will practice at all. Here's irony for you - the worst thing you can do for your legal career is to graduate from law school.

What goes on in the minds of potential law employers? "Well, Mr. Jones has a law degree. If I hire him to be my office assistant, he will watch me and learn all about the business in a year. Soon, he'll take all the training I give to him and go out on his own, probably taking some of my clients with him and now there will be a new lawyer in my area of expertise that I have to compete with.

No thanks, let me hire Mrs. Smith. She has a two-year associate's degree and she clearly has no aspirations higher than being a secretary. She wants a steady paycheck and to go home at a reasonable time everyday. Hired."

This is a profession where the only training you get is the only training you can obtain for yourself. If after reading the mountain of evidence against going to law school, if you still can't be convinced to not take part in such a foolish endeavour, I would at least advise to not go to law school right away. Get some kind of low level job at a law firm, do some legal volunteer work, time everything out so that you do not get the scarlett JD attached to you until you can honestly say to yourself that you are ready to practice.

Because once that JD goes on your resume, no one will help you. You'll be stuck in a world where you are considered too underqualified to be hired for the desired jobs of your profession, and too overqualified to be hired for the jobs that would give you any experience.

As for the non-legal world, no it is not fair what happens to JD holders. I think having a JD and applying for a non law job has always been difficult, but in today's job market where employers have so many options they can afford to be picky and invent ideas like "Oh that person will leave because they're so qualified" or "Hmm something must be wrong with this person if he/she has a JD and is applying for this job."

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heythere (Sep 14, 2014 - 9:53 pm)

"What goes on in the minds of potential law employers? "Well, Mr. Jones has a law degree. If I hire him to be my office assistant, he will watch me and learn all about the business in a year. Soon, he'll take all the training I give to him and go out on his own, probably taking some of my clients with him and now there will be a new lawyer in my area of expertise that I have to compete with.

No thanks, let me hire Mrs. Smith. She has a two-year associate's degree and she clearly has no aspirations higher than being a secretary. She wants a steady paycheck and to go home at a reasonable time everyday. Hired.""

---------------------------------------

The point is more along the lines 'JDs are so desperate for jobs that they will apply for jobs that are supposedly well below the education and training that they receive' than the obvious business reasons why they won't be hired.

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gribble (Sep 22, 2014 - 5:24 am)

Haha want to know what will happen if someone takes your advice?

"He is too old and too set in his ways, we are really looking for someone new and young, an entry level position, so we can mold them to do things our way."

Bottom line, whenever you have a surplus of candidates, their wages and their opportunity decline proportionally. That is why liberal supply side economics has always been so dumb. The elite liberals don't practice it themselves, they simply practice it for everyone else. Well actually, this one is one of those shared traits across all political parties.

How old do you want people to be before they actually have careers? America already has delayed marriages, delayed home ownership, declining birth rates as a result of age etc.

The only field it makes sense to have such a high age to begin it is medicine, and only because it is so restricted and the salaries are so high. Otherwise it is idiotic to waste so many years of young people's lives before they can even get started.

Law is nothing but an undergrad major in most countries. And to my knowledge, only the US practices debt slavery for education to the level that is happening from law school, and even then only in the past 11ish years with liberal policies making loans a blank check, and conservative policies removing bankruptcy protection (boom, double whammy, how's that for the political process working together for one united goal? betcha didn't think they had it in them!).

It is really too late now, but if law graduates a year were reduced to around the number of actual open positions a year (roughly 7800 or so a year now, a tiny uptick at most of a couple hundred a year), most of these problems would disappear for the legal profession.

Scarcity and demand determine value and subsequently wages. Nothing else can change that. Law has zero scarcity and thus has minimal value. The only scarcity is really at the top, the number of HYS grads are pretty limited, therefore they still have fairly decent outcomes overall. Everyone else is fairly worthless however, with increasing worthlessness down the line.

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boomeresq (Sep 14, 2014 - 1:22 pm)

One other thing that may be stopping law firms from hiring jds for non lawyer jobs is the malpractice insurance issue. If I higher a JD for no matter what job, I have to report it to my carrier or my insurance becomes nul and void because the insurance company get more premium for each jd/attorney working for me. It is not cheap either.

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cranky (Sep 14, 2014 - 9:07 pm)

Stevelaw, I totally agree with you. I'm just a solo practitioner, but already in the past year, I've been contacted by several recent law school graduates who have been trying to glom onto me for "mentoring." I know it sounds mean and not collegial, but heck, I'm trying to make a living for myself, so why would I want to teach some newbie all about how to practice and give them all my templates just so they can compete against me for the same clients, instead of referring me the business? My area doesn't need any more attorneys, much less someone with zero experience who's going to be advertising the lowest rates on Craigslist.

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mjrvegas (Sep 15, 2014 - 10:31 am)

Stevelaw, Cranky, I see your point -- but as a small firm owner myself, I am not worried about creating my own competition. Associates can work for you for years and then leave and compete with you too, right?

Personally, I'm not interested in hiring JDs for support positions, just because I want continuity. I've interviewed JDs who were either taking the bar later or waiting on results, and they've always admitted that they're gone the second they can get their ticket. So, that's not exactly helpful for me.

On the other hand, at a prior firm, we had a JD support person. She had no intention of ever taking the bar exam. I never asked why or got into it, but she was a great support staffer, and if she lived in Vegas, I'd poach her in a heartbeat.

So, I would be open minded to hiring a JD for a support position - but I'd want a commitment from them that they would not sit for the bar exam for at least a couple of years.

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downfell (Sep 15, 2014 - 6:31 pm)

I got tired of people saying "somebody should make a JD Disadvantage blog", so I just went ahead and did it, including everything in this thread that's still available to copypasta. It's very basic because it doesn't need to be anything else-- the job posters are doing all the work. Gave credit to JDU in the first post and will work on a side bar. http://jddisadvantaged.blogspot.com/

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heythere (Sep 15, 2014 - 9:30 pm)

http://www.simplyhired.com/job/paralegal-entry-level-job/e-m-messick-consulting-inc/3sfsoksjru

Our client, one of the world's most prominent law firms seeks an entry level Paralegal for the firm’s New York office. The candidate will maintain case documents; assist attorneys with preparation of pleadings, filings and document productions; proof-read and cite check legal documents; prepare for and attend depositions, hearings and trials; perform LEXIS, Westlaw, internet and field research; translate foreign language documents; and interact with clients, local counsel and the firm’s Washington, D.C. and international offices. Clients range from large international corporations to indigent pro bono individuals.


Bachelor’s degree with strong academic background (minimum 3.3 GPA) required. Candidate must be willing to work overtime. Fluency in Spanish, French, Portuguese, German or Italian language skills a plus. No JD’s please.

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wolfman (Sep 20, 2014 - 7:08 pm)

"Candidate should not have a JD" for a legal and compliance analyst position in a law firm in NYC: http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/acc/4659927083.

Note that this isn't an entry-level position, but one that requires experience... so, essentially, if you have managed to accumulate 2+ years of compliance experience, your expensive JD degree will still result in your resume going straight into the garbage... thanks for playing!!!

By the way, if I were ever in a law enforcement/investigative position (haha, but stranger things have happened:-) I would watch ads like this and pretty much assume that any organization that does not want to hire a JD for a compliance position is planning to engage in shady or just plain illegal conduct... and would conduct my activities vis a vis that organization accordingly... and I hope other similarly situated folks would do the same... just a word to the wise...


Legal and Compliance Analyst -
DOE + bonus and benefits

• Key role in both the day-to-day administration of the firm's compliance program and in the continuous
effort to improve and adapt the compliance program in a rapidly changing regulatory environment.
• Monitor and understand regulatory, compliance and legal developments affecting the firm.
• Assist in the performance of forensic testing for compliance with the firm's policies and procedures,
incorporating technology and analytics where appropriate.
• Produce, organize and maintain compliance recordkeeping.
• Manage the organization and exchange of documents in connection with negotiated purchases of
private equity and other non-exchange-traded instruments.
• Assist with regulatory filings in various jurisdictions globally.
• Perform due diligence of firm research providers, consultants, and counterparties.
• Help manage the process of periodically updating fund documents (offering memoranda, subscription
agreements, etc.) as well as the management company's compliance manual, code of ethics,
investor due diligence documents, and the like.
• Knowledge management: manage the storage and rapid retrieval of the extensive legal analysis the
firm's attorneys have performed and the legal advice received from outside counsel.

EDUCATION
• Bachelor's degree from a highly regarded college or university; candidate should have accumulated
an outstanding academic record.
• A professional license such as a CPA or a FINRA license would be viewed favorably, but is not
required.
• Candidate should not have a JD.

EXPERIENCE
• Approximately two to six years of experience in an analytical role, such as broker-dealer compliance
or risk-management, accounting, auditing, consulting, paralegal or other role involving detailed
analysis and the management of large and complex aggregations of information.

Please send resume in confidence with code, LCA in subject line.

*AN EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER*

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heythere (Sep 21, 2014 - 10:10 am)

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/lgl/46753

Posted: 2014-09-19 7:11am
*** Litigation Paralegal -- Great Firm, Great Opportunity! *** (San Francisco)
compensation: To $86,500 per year depending upon experience
*** Litigation Paralegal -- Great Firm, Great Opportunity! ***

A top San Francisco law firm is seeking a Litigation Paralegal to join their busy Litigation practice as soon as possible. This position will include management of discovery, deposition prep, trial support, legal research and other key tasks.

The ideal candidate will have between 3 and 7 years of experience with a national or top regional law firm, a great work ethic, an attention to detail and a pleasant sense of humor. In depth-experience with E-Discovery tools like Relativity is a plus, as is a B.A. or B.S. degree.

Compensation is commensurate with experience. J.D.s will not be considered for this position unless you have significant prior experience as a paralegal.

Please send a current resume today as interviews begin soon. Your resume will not be submitted to our client firm until you have been contacted and given your approval.93402.html

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