Penn State cuts in-state tuition by $20K

From the sticker price of $41,008: http://news.psu.edu/stichininosan11/25/13
When I saw this I assumed that it would be off of the usual lolskewl11/25/13
Penn State in general has very high tuition for a flagship sellellou11/25/13
UPenn is private.massivemissive11/25/13
So? Penn State is the subject of the thread and Penn State iellellou11/25/13
Easy there, you said "U. Pennsylvania." I see it was a misumassivemissive11/25/13
You're right, I phrased my post awkwardly. My bad. PA surellellou11/25/13
It's more than penn state. Pa is just notorious for not mnlaw11/25/13
Two points: 1. In the case of Penn State, there are someichininosan11/25/13
unh is ~40k, as wellthecharmingmresq11/25/13
Clearly this is an incentive to keep the law students from sbazabutza11/25/13
WOW. I would have gone there for that tuition in a heartbeavespucius11/25/13
Imagine how annoyed the people are who just graduated.therewillbeblood11/25/13
Even with the discount, I don't share your enthusiam. With ichininosan11/25/13
I attended Dickinson in the 70s. Even though it was a privakaneloa11/25/13
UT from 1990-1993. Yearly tuition was at a reasonable $7,50jeffm11/25/13
Between the awful publicity of Jerry Sandusky and the total ibrslave11/26/13
I can't speak to Penn State, but back in the day, the proudlkaneloa11/26/13
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com /2013/11/the-end-of-dickiichininosan11/26/13
Campos summarized my pessimism about this whole sordid affaiibrslave11/26/13
Surprising policy, but I bet if you go to the dean's office jeffm11/26/13
Yes this is key. The loss of one student's full tuition offslolskewl11/26/13



ichininosan (Nov 25, 2013 - 1:26 pm)

From the sticker price of $41,008:

http://news.psu.edu/story/296368/2013/11/25/academics/penn-states-dickinson-school-law-provide-20k-grant-pennsylvanians

Surely they were already offering big discounts to keep head count. The reduction is framed as a "grant" for "scholars" but the criteria make clear that it is a new in-state tuition rate:

"The Commonwealth Scholars program is offered to all prospective J.D. students who apply and are admitted to Penn State Law and enrolling in fall 2014; and are able to demonstrate that Pennsylvania is their primary residence."

I suppose the reason for keeping sticker at $41K is in the (fading) hope of someday bringing back the sticker rate.

With the cut, law school tuition is now comparable to other graduate programs other than medical school:

http://tuition.psu.edu/tuitiondynamic/rates.aspx?location=up

https://law.psu.edu/admissions/tuition-and-related-expenses

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lolskewl (Nov 25, 2013 - 2:06 pm)

When I saw this I assumed that it would be off of the usual in-state rate of 25K, bringing tuition at least down to where it should be. I had no idea a non-California "state school" had such high IN-STATE tuition. When did that happen?

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ellellou (Nov 25, 2013 - 5:01 pm)

Penn State in general has very high tuition for a flagship state U. Pennsylvania is notorius for underfunding Penn State. The Philadelphia voters want Temple funded, the Pittsburgh voters want Pitt funded, and Penn State gets the short end of the stick (Temple undergrad costs much less than PSU, not sure about Pitt).

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massivemissive (Nov 25, 2013 - 5:53 pm)

UPenn is private.

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ellellou (Nov 25, 2013 - 6:05 pm)

So? Penn State is the subject of the thread and Penn State is public.

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massivemissive (Nov 25, 2013 - 8:25 pm)

Easy there, you said "U. Pennsylvania." I see it was a misunderstanding on my part. But does PA really need a law school in State College, PA? And one in Carlisle?

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ellellou (Nov 25, 2013 - 9:13 pm)

You're right, I phrased my post awkwardly. My bad.

PA sure as hell does not need a law school in the middle of the state. Pitt and Duquesne are more than enough for the west, Temple and Nova are more than enough for the east (I don't count Penn cause Penn grads don't stay in-state).

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mnlaw (Nov 25, 2013 - 8:44 pm)

It's more than penn state.

Pa is just notorious for not caring about education, penn staters just have a woe is me with everything

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ichininosan (Nov 25, 2013 - 6:09 pm)

Two points:

1. In the case of Penn State, there are some legacy issues that might explain the high tuition, in particular the high in state tuition. Penn State acquired Dickinson Law School a 5 - 10 years ago. Dickinson, at the time, was a private school.

2. Incredibly, $40K is not a high in state tuition rate at most law schools anymore. For example, just look at the price a 1L at Minnesota pays: $40,000 for residents / $47,000 for non-residents.

http://www.law.umn.edu/prospective/tuition.html

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thecharmingmresq (Nov 25, 2013 - 11:45 pm)

unh is ~40k, as well

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bazabutza (Nov 25, 2013 - 4:01 pm)

Clearly this is an incentive to keep the law students from suing the University over their blatant disregard of Jerry Sandusky sharing the law school showers with students.

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vespucius (Nov 25, 2013 - 8:31 pm)

WOW. I would have gone there for that tuition in a heartbeat. I paid double.

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therewillbeblood (Nov 25, 2013 - 9:36 pm)

Imagine how annoyed the people are who just graduated.

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ichininosan (Nov 25, 2013 - 9:46 pm)

Even with the discount, I don't share your enthusiam. With expenses, graduates are still expected to budget $42,000 for one year of attendance. I'm assuming that discounting is not going to be pursued agressively once the tuition rate is $21K. When you consider that 35% of the class did not get a lawyer job in 2012 and that of the ones who did, all but 16 students landed on the lower tier of the bi-modal salary curve (i.e. the one with $60,000 salaries), I don't see a very good return on the $120,000 investment. Granted $60,000 may be $20,000 more than the average salary I would expect somebody with a 3.58 GPA / 158 LSAT score to earn after graduation from college ("average" covering a broad spectrum of outcomes), but how long will it take students to recover the $120,000 in lost earnings, $120,000 in sunk costs, and interest on that latter figure? At 6.8% interest, even on a very long -- JD to AARP 30-year-repayment plan, you will need to shell out $800/month to pay off your loans. Optimistically assuming your cost of living post law school is $25,000 and your annual loan repayment to be $10,000, you will have very little discretionary income in this scenario. Getting married? Buying a home? Having children? Are these even realistic choices?

I guess so long as people don't go through this little microeconomic thought exercise, they will see a $20,000 "scholarship" as a "bargain." But that's just failing to consider the actual value proposition that this law school offers. Every year, thousands of people go through the same erroneous thinking.

http://law.psu.edu/_file/Class_2012_Employment_Summary.pdf
http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/loanpayments.cgi

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kaneloa (Nov 25, 2013 - 11:15 pm)

I attended Dickinson in the 70s. Even though it was a private school at the time, there was a state grant for Pennsylvania residents. It wasn't $20,000, of course. I seem to remember that the tuition was $1200/semester at the time so the grant was a few hundred per semester. (I can't swear that number is correct; at my age the memory isn't so good.)

No, Penn State doesn't need two campuses. It should keep the promises it made when Dickinson agreed to merge with the University. Close the monstrosity of a law school in State College. I'm sure there's some other department that could use that nightmare.

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jeffm (Nov 25, 2013 - 11:27 pm)

UT from 1990-1993. Yearly tuition was at a reasonable $7,500. It disgusts me how much it has gone up since.

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ibrslave (Nov 26, 2013 - 8:40 am)

Between the awful publicity of Jerry Sandusky and the total failure of its "unified" two-campus setup, Penn State is very desperate for students and their tuition $. This is simply a ploy to undercut the tuition cost of their competition. They don't give a damn about their students. If this were the case, Penn State would be doing something to help its thousands of students with six-figure debt who graduated in the past decade. No, this is just about trying to get new marks to sign the promissory notes and fill the seats.

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kaneloa (Nov 26, 2013 - 9:55 am)

I can't speak to Penn State, but back in the day, the proudly independent Dickinson School of Law treated its students very well. The faculty got to know us personally and vice versa. I still communicate with some of them.

Penn State wanted a law school and stabbed DSL in the back to get one fast and easy.

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ichininosan (Nov 26, 2013 - 10:35 am)

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/11/the-end-of-dickinson

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ibrslave (Nov 26, 2013 - 10:56 am)

Campos summarized my pessimism about this whole sordid affair. Here is a statistic missing from Campos' article: "Penn State’s drop [of applicants] has been even steeper, with applications received dropping from 5,326 in 2010 to 1,885 this year..." http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/11/penn_state_to_offer_lower_in-s.html. I had no idea that Penn State's applications have gone down THAT much!

I was wondering why on God's earth Penn State would be cutting tuition in half when the law school has been hemorrhaging money for years. As Campos points out, it is likely that the central administration of Penn State is planning on closing Carlisle campus once and for all.

On a no-less important side note, how furious would you be if were/are a PA resident who is either a 1L, 2L, or recent graduate who has been paying twice what 1Ls will be paying next year? Penn State is letting these folks know that they don't give a flying f@#k about them after they've parted with their tuition $.

Penn State deserves to be shut down. Nobody should apply there.

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jeffm (Nov 26, 2013 - 11:10 am)

Surprising policy, but I bet if you go to the dean's office and tell them you are transferring out, the policy becomes "flexible" really fast.

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lolskewl (Nov 26, 2013 - 12:55 pm)

Yes this is key. The loss of one student's full tuition offsets two of these "scholarships."

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