Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Craigslist $15.00 an hour in Westchester NY

Wow its come down near to minimum wage. Part time attorne zodd03/12/13
"If you are over qualified but none the less desire to apply cynicalobserver03/12/13
So? What's the problem? Pay your dues and get experience w resipsalucifer03/12/13
Interesting username I get what you mean by 15.00 is bett subprimejd03/12/13
troof okocim03/12/13
What do you think is waiting for you at the end of the rainb eject03/12/13
No thanks. Rather do something else. So I did. Screw that. thedetroiter03/12/13
To each his/her own. In my opinion you shouldn't have to as zodd03/12/13
You're missing the point. Starting position is not at all d resipsalucifer03/13/13
$15 an hour is more than double the current federal minimum atheistlawyer03/12/13
LOL...thank you for that. fabio203/12/13
yeah but you can make $15 an hour with a high school diploma okocim03/12/13
A law degree has no inherent value. It is an asset that mus resipsalucifer03/12/13
Thank you for typing this, bro. One of my bootstraps broke j guyingorillasuit03/12/13
This! subprimejd03/12/13
Actually it's not possible to pull oneself up by one's boots resipsalucifer03/12/13
But if you had a noose around your neck and you grabbed your atheistlawyer03/12/13
And you make a good point there. That's why law school i thedetroiter03/12/13
So your arguments why this purported job is good are "pay yo heythere03/12/13
I'll be honest with you. I didn't read your entire post. I resipsalucifer03/13/13
"There is no necessary logical connection between (1) the pr jdttt03/12/13
the price of a house knucklehead. jdslug03/12/13
If this does not hold true, then that means there is a marke atheistlawyer03/12/13
So if any person anywhere in the world has it worse than you brusselsprouts03/12/13
No, that's not my point, nor even remotely close to what I s resipsalucifer03/12/13
Yes, I agree. They're laughing their asses off at how an thedetroiter03/12/13
"making 15/hr is (hopefully) a temporary stepping stone to b atheistlawyer03/13/13
Anyone who says you should accept $15/hour as an attorney, h francescadarimini03/13/13
If the original post accurately summarizes the tasks to be p resipsalucifer03/13/13
I've received similar advice in the doc review arena, i.e. d francescadarimini03/13/13
At least it's money instead of some crazy work for free, pro ttretiree03/13/13
Exactly, take optometry for example. 3 years of classes and okocim03/13/13
$15.00/hr isn't the worst you can do on Craigslist; http: gazoo03/13/13

zodd (Mar 12, 2013 - 11:06 am)

Wow its come down near to minimum wage.

Part time attorney

$15 an hour for 20 hours. $300 a week no benefits.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/lgl/3673763465.html

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cynicalobserver (Mar 12, 2013 - 1:43 pm)

"If you are over qualified but none the less desire to apply we will entertain your application ..."

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resipsalucifer (Mar 12, 2013 - 2:16 pm)

So? What's the problem? Pay your dues and get experience which you can then leverage into more lucrative situation(s). 15/hr is better than zero/hr. quit whining.

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subprimejd (Mar 12, 2013 - 2:37 pm)

Interesting username

I get what you mean by 15.00 is better than zero. But I disagree with the notion that we must still be paying our dues after all this time, all the hard work and all the cost and sacrifice. Sure, if law school was 15k per year average tuition then a 15.00 dollar starting pay rate would be acceptable. In light of the astronomical cost, graduates have paid and unfortunately will continue to be paying hefty dues.

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okocim (Mar 12, 2013 - 3:32 pm)

troof

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eject (Mar 12, 2013 - 3:52 pm)

What do you think is waiting for you at the end of the rainbow once you "pay your dues." In a saturated profession, there will be similar BS at every stage of your career.

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thedetroiter (Mar 12, 2013 - 4:02 pm)

No thanks. Rather do something else. So I did. Screw that.

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zodd (Mar 12, 2013 - 4:04 pm)

To each his/her own. In my opinion you shouldn't have to as you say "pay your dues" at $15 an hour as a professional. Show me another industry that requires 3 years of post college education and in many instances $100k in debt plus a comprehensive license exam that starts out people at that wage for 20 hours a week and no benefits.

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resipsalucifer (Mar 13, 2013 - 1:17 am)

You're missing the point. Starting position is not at all determinative of ending position.

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atheistlawyer (Mar 12, 2013 - 2:54 pm)

$15 an hour is more than double the current federal minimum wage. I'd hardly call that "near to minimum wage".

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fabio2 (Mar 12, 2013 - 3:56 pm)

LOL...thank you for that.

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okocim (Mar 12, 2013 - 3:34 pm)

yeah but you can make $15 an hour with a high school diploma, thats the depressing part.

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resipsalucifer (Mar 12, 2013 - 5:36 pm)

A law degree has no inherent value. It is an asset that must be cultivated over time. A lawyer's value to clients (and, hence, to legal employers who serve those clients) is derived from the lawyer's knowledge and experience, of which new grads have little. No one cares that you are a "professional" and that you have been forced to endure "cost and sacrifice" (whatever that means).

Lawyers, like other products, are subject to the law of supply and demand. There is no necessary logical connection between (1) the price paid for an asset and (2) the value that others should be expected to ascribe to it.

Finally, the fact that "you can make $15 an hour with a high school diploma" is irrelevant. All things being equal, a lawyer's long-term earning potential is superior to that of one who merely has a high school diploma. I am mad that you made me type this.

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guyingorillasuit (Mar 12, 2013 - 6:00 pm)

Thank you for typing this, bro. One of my bootstraps broke just as I was raising myself by it, and now I left with one bootstrap. After I read your encouraging note, though, I was able to repair the second bootstrap using nothing but my courage, eagerness, and work ethic.

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subprimejd (Mar 12, 2013 - 6:12 pm)

This!

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resipsalucifer (Mar 12, 2013 - 6:55 pm)

Actually it's not possible to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps. Violates Newton's third law. Good response tho.

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atheistlawyer (Mar 12, 2013 - 11:12 pm)

But if you had a noose around your neck and you grabbed your bootstraps and yanked your feet off the ground, you would be able to strangle yourself. In the case of law degrees (or education in general) the market failure is the faulty employment information and outright fraud committed by the law schools.

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thedetroiter (Mar 12, 2013 - 7:46 pm)

And you make a good point there.

That's why law school is a scam.

It teaches you nothing about the practice of law. I could have studied for the bar all by myself. Law school is one big swindle. There is no other profession (and I don't really consider law a profession because REAL professions self-regulate and refuse to pump out twice as many licensees as there is demand for, but I digress)where the schooling is so useless. None.

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heythere (Mar 12, 2013 - 8:55 pm)

So your arguments why this purported job is good are "pay your dues" and, basically, the related premise of 'paying your dues yields aggregate knowledge/experience that leads to long-term earning potential.'

Gonna have to disagree with you on this. "Pay your dues" implies that there is a reward after paying your dues. The reward can be knowledge or money. The first premise is easy to dispose; none of the posters averred that they lacked knowledge or that the job would be a teaching experience. If "pay your dues" implies that the education you received was so irrelevant that you should take the job just to gain knowledge, it must mean that the educational system has utterly failed. Then, we might as well shutter all law schools.

The second premise relies on the suggestion that doing work for free or nearly free means that someone will value my work and pay greatly for that. The basic notion of working for free or nearly free is that the work is not valued in the least bit. If a commodity is consistently sold at low prices, it means that the value of the commodity is low. So, paying your dues does not yield a monetary reward now or later.

The posters have already paid their dues by graduating from law school and being qualified to do a job. The job just doesn't pay anything worthwhile.

The related premise that paying your dues yields greater aggregate knowledge certainly is true. But experience tends to be along the "learning curve" where the tail end yields no important gains in knowledge. I may not have seen this particular case, but I probably have seen others just like it or have read about it in a case book. I just don't need to work for next to nothing to learn just a smidgen more.

What the posters need are jobs. There are none. Things like this are usually a giant red flag that the field is overcrowded and worthy of an exit if you don't have a job. Just because in 20 years the situation may change, doesn't mean you stick it out.

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resipsalucifer (Mar 13, 2013 - 1:14 am)

I'll be honest with you. I didn't read your entire post. I got five lines in and gave up.

Anyway, there will always be lawyers, and there will always be successful lawyers. Either do what you need to do to be part of that group, or don't.

Good luck.

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jdttt (Mar 12, 2013 - 7:30 pm)

"There is no necessary logical connection between (1) the price paid for an asset and (2) the value that others should be expected to ascribe to it."

Can you name other examples of when this law applies? thanks

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jdslug (Mar 12, 2013 - 7:32 pm)

the price of a house knucklehead.

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atheistlawyer (Mar 12, 2013 - 11:37 pm)

If this does not hold true, then that means there is a market failure somewhere.

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brusselsprouts (Mar 12, 2013 - 7:40 pm)

So if any person anywhere in the world has it worse than you, you have no right to complain? Is that your point? The going rate for guitar lessons in LA is $40 hr. No college, no overhead, no employees, and they probably don't declare most of it in taxes because it is cash. And attorneys should be happy about $15/hr?

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resipsalucifer (Mar 12, 2013 - 8:20 pm)

No, that's not my point, nor even remotely close to what I said. Lawyers should not be "happy" making 15/hr. making 15/hr is (hopefully) a temporary stepping stone to bigger and better things. Again, it all boils down to supply and demand, and the fact that merely having a JD does not entitle one to anything. Man, I bet any medical residents reading this thread are laughing their asses off right about now.

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thedetroiter (Mar 12, 2013 - 8:59 pm)

Yes, I agree.

They're laughing their asses off at how anyone has to start out working for nearly nothing after seven years of "schooling" and six figures in loans to pay off. They sure don't. But then again, medicine doesn't pump out twice as many licensees as there is demand for, so there's really little basis for comparison, whether they choose to laugh or not.

That may have a little bit to do with it.

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atheistlawyer (Mar 13, 2013 - 1:38 am)

"making 15/hr is (hopefully) a temporary stepping stone to bigger and better things"

Lol. Just keep telling yourself that.

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francescadarimini (Mar 13, 2013 - 11:16 am)

Anyone who says you should accept $15/hour as an attorney, has a crappy project to staff. If desperate attorneys refuse to stoop so low, employers will be forced to pay more. If they can't pay more, they should GTFO or do it themselves.

When I was living abroad, I was once offered $15/hour to teach someone English. As a poor college student, it sounded like a great deal to me. When I mentioned it to my expat friends, they insisted I accept no less than $20/hour. In such a tight-knit expat community, you risked ostracization by accepting less than the going rate. Their objections were more about protecting themselves than concern for me. Soon thereafter I got $20-$25/hour offers, and was glad they talked me out of the $15/hour gig.

My point is, there is value in holding the line. Once you accept so little, it's very hard to convince employers to pay you more. It's better not to sent a precedent that you'll accept so little.

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resipsalucifer (Mar 13, 2013 - 12:06 pm)

If the original post accurately summarizes the tasks to be performed, this guy isn't looking for someone to make copies (if he were, he wouldn't be offering $15/hour to do it).

Why not take the job, get experience, and develop a solo practice on the side? Maybe you'll be able to get some overflow work or referrals of cases on which he has a conflict, are too small for him to handle, etc.

An attorney with little/no experience has no leverage, and nothing to back up a demand for more $.

Your expat example is completely inapplicable for reasons too obvious to explain. For instance, you won't be "ostracized" for taking a $15/hour job (assuming, of course, that it is one in which you are using and developing legal skills). In fact, quite the opposite is true: older/more experienced members of the profession are likely to respect you, rather than shun you, upon learning that you are doing everything you need to do to develop real lawyering skills.

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francescadarimini (Mar 13, 2013 - 12:25 pm)

I've received similar advice in the doc review arena, i.e. don't accept that low rate, because then they will know you're willing to stoop that low. Word gets around, plus some job applications actually insist you admit how much you accepted for prior positions. That can have a serious downward impact on future wages.

It all depends on whether you're actually getting valuable experience, which has its own value and can be considered a substitute for higher wages. I'm just saying there are real costs to accepting too little, and I've known too many desperate people who've accepted less than they could have gotten if they had been willing to negotiate. I think this is particularly a problem with women, since they are less likely to negotiate and more likely to underestimate their market worth.

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ttretiree (Mar 13, 2013 - 5:38 pm)

At least it's money instead of some crazy work for free, pro bono, externship/internship. And there's the great punch line, "Well, what did you expect for $15/hour?"

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okocim (Mar 13, 2013 - 1:45 am)

Exactly, take optometry for example. 3 years of classes and 1 year of rotations after undergrad and most are starting at 60-70k even somewhere shitty like lenscrafters. How come? Because there are 25 optometry schools in the whole country, they would never let happen what has happened to law

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gazoo (Mar 13, 2013 - 7:38 am)

$15.00/hr isn't the worst you can do on Craigslist;

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/03/richard_beasley_faces_possible.html#incart_river_default#incart_m-rpt-2

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