Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Brain drain above the law

given recent graduates’ inability to pass the bar exam cou sanka06/13/17
I'd recommend people to go into the health field. There's pl isthisit06/13/17
Yup. It's really the only field that's "safe." Of course, th 3lol06/13/17
Indeed. A lot of JDs don't look there because their liberal onehell06/13/17
Hoping to make it to healthcare compliance down the road 3lol06/13/17
These jobs you describe are very hard to get. I'm not sure patenttrollnj06/14/17
My PGY1 salary and benefits would make many law grads jealou bigsal06/13/17
Private equity is getting into hleath field as we speak... T triplesix06/13/17
In my opinion, I just think it's silly to waste 3 years and patenttrollnj06/14/17
By 'practicing' do you mean private practice or also includi loblawyer06/14/17
In-house is NOT an exit option. It's practicing law, and it patenttrollnj06/14/17
This is the truth. In the 60s, one's BA in English cost $1. dupednontraditional06/14/17
I would gladly GIVE my education away, but nobody wants to t patenttrollnj06/14/17
The cream will rise to the top, so no I do not recommend the trollfeeder06/14/17
I am a liberal arts/TT law grad from the early to mid 2000s jdmd06/19/17
sanka (Jun 13, 2017 - 4:14 pm)

given recent graduates’ inability to pass the bar exam coupled with their burgeoning debt loads. How many recent law grads would recommend going to law school? The answer, we fear, is not many



Fascinating. ......

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isthisit (Jun 13, 2017 - 4:25 pm)

I'd recommend people to go into the health field. There's plenty of jobs in key health roles.

Law is for suckers.

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3lol (Jun 13, 2017 - 5:27 pm)

Yup. It's really the only field that's "safe." Of course, the reshuffling of roles in the health field might put certain jobs in jeopardy, but by and large they'll be okay. I work with a lot of docs and post residency salaries would make 99% of law grads jelly.

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onehell (Jun 13, 2017 - 6:27 pm)

Indeed. A lot of JDs don't look there because their liberal artistry tends to preclude them having much in the way of the science prereqs (and because they are already too deep in debt to go back and essentially do undergrad over), but that is really only a barrier to medical/nursing/PA school. There's also a lot of jobs in healthcare for MSWs, MPAs and MPHs, all of which are programs that are hospitable to JDs and often even waive GRE for them. Also, there's a significant field of healthcare compliance for which the JD is directly relevant (albeit neither necessary nor sufficient).

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3lol (Jun 13, 2017 - 8:05 pm)

Hoping to make it to healthcare compliance down the road

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patenttrollnj (Jun 14, 2017 - 12:50 am)

These jobs you describe are very hard to get. I'm not sure they're tenable for most law school graduates, unless they have one of those other degrees you listed or some amount of work experience as a nurse (or something like that).

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bigsal (Jun 13, 2017 - 7:19 pm)

My PGY1 salary and benefits would make many law grads jealous.

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triplesix (Jun 13, 2017 - 7:23 pm)

Private equity is getting into hleath field as we speak... Think monkey agency for nurses and PA's. While the pay and bennies are still all good and there, the peak for sub-doctors has already passed. Getting into it now is likely trying to go in to law school in '07. Of course only time will tell if PE will be able to bastardize those professions since there are different market forces in play... But how many pa/nursings schools opened over last decade and what debt loads do they carry?

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patenttrollnj (Jun 14, 2017 - 1:08 am)

In my opinion, I just think it's silly to waste 3 years and $150K for a career that will only last a few years.

I graduated 15 years ago, and out of the people I'm in touch with from my law school, nobody is currently practicing law (soon, that will include me too). The only classmates that I know of who are practicing law are the ones who get profiled in my school's alumni publication.

Too bad US Snooze doesn't factor the 10-year employment statistics when ranking law schools.

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loblawyer (Jun 14, 2017 - 1:27 am)

By 'practicing' do you mean private practice or also including exit options like in-house?

Curious what you are transitioning into, and is it from patent/IP?

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patenttrollnj (Jun 14, 2017 - 2:19 am)

In-house is NOT an exit option. It's practicing law, and it's actually quite hard to get. The people I refer to above have left law entirely (and they're not doing anything all that impressive).

Regarding me: I'll probably just get some stupid job somewhere. At 40-something, I don't have many options anymore. Sadly, I've had to come to terms with the fact that my law degree and my years of experience are NOT valued by anyone. And yes, it was patent law, but it was all small firm experience (hence, nobody values it).

For a while, I was considering returning to school, but I ruled against this. Yes, I would have been an "old" student, but I wouldn't have been the only one. My concern was whether I'd be able to find a job afterwards. The last think I needed was a second worthless degree.

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dupednontraditional (Jun 14, 2017 - 7:29 am)

This is the truth. In the 60s, one's BA in English cost $1.50 and a cup of coffee, and lasted an entire white-collar career. Now, everyone has to pay $100k every ten years to get a new degree because previously-prestigious degrees and work experience have a two year half-life.

People can't afford the churn. "They can never take your education away from you" goes the old saw, but that education can depreciate to zero. If higher ed was remotely affordable, maybe, but not now. Ironically, people are now turning down education instead of seeking it out, which cuts against one of the high tenets of liberalism.

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patenttrollnj (Jun 14, 2017 - 11:09 am)

I would gladly GIVE my education away, but nobody wants to take it.

One thing that has become obvious about law is how one's legal career is (very often) over before it even begins. Without the right pedigree or connections, any effort you put into it will just be a waste of time and energy. I don't want to repeat this pattern again.

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trollfeeder (Jun 14, 2017 - 10:22 am)

The cream will rise to the top, so no I do not recommend the law to a middling student who wants to get rich, the admission bar is so low that anybody can go, and if anybody can go, logic concludes that a lot of those souls will not make it big. If you are being offered scholarship to go to a good school, you have some options in life, just as if you are in a good accounting program or business program etc. I think the big takeaway for recent college grads is that there are federal loans and desperate admissions deans that will set you up, but you have to approach it from the perspective of what field will give you the best opportunity to advance and succeed.

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jdmd (Jun 19, 2017 - 10:26 am)

I am a liberal arts/TT law grad from the early to mid 2000s that made it into healthcare. I did not know how worthless those degrees were at the time. There was no scamblog movement back then. My state has one of the top state schools. But I was an idiot and went to the high priced, low ranked liberal arts college instead. I believed their nonsense about small classes, etc. I wanted to go to law school after graduation. I tried hedging my bets by applying for jobs. I got the sense of just how worthless my liberal arts degree truly was. Not a single company offered me a job. But there were plenty of law schools that wanted me!

All of the law schools claimed they had 99% employment rates with private practice salaries averaging $100k. Before I enrolled at my TT, the dean of career services said not to worry about paying back $150k in student loans. We could take a high paying job in private practice to pay back the loans. The dean bragged about all of the employers that interviewed on campus. I was a good student and became a member of the worthless law review. I interviewed for big law and Federal jobs at OCI. I did not receive a single call back interview. But I wasn’t alone. All of my friends struck out at OCI. When working with the OCS, the new talking point became, “most people don’t get a job through OCI. You need to network and mail out resumes.” By about the end of the second year and beginning of the third year, we began to realize the law school lied about jobs. I sent out 100s of resumes. I was rejected for everything – big law, federal jobs, state jobs, prosecutor jobs, public defender jobs, judicial clerkships, and toilet law.

When I graduated in the mid 2000s, the war in Iraq was going badly. Even though I hated Bush, I felt a duty to join the Army and serve. I wanted to get a legal job and join the Army reserves. I was not interested in JAG, because I did not want to prosecute Soldiers. After I passed the bar and was rejected for 100s of jobs, I enlisted in the Army. The following spring, my LS published the same fraudulent job stats. About a year later, I received a call from a LS classmate. They were desperate for work, and they were interested in enlisting in the Army. I warned them if they enlisted, they were in for a rough life, and to be prepared to be treated like garbage.

While I was in the Army, I was able to repay over $150k in undergrad and LS loans thanks to the student loan repayment, an enlistment bonus, and my tax free deployment to Iraq, where everything was paid for and I had nowhere to spend my money. Around 2011, I came across the scamblog movement. I realized I would never have a future in law. At this time, a career in the Army appeared iffy because of the cutbacks. I decided to become a doc. I had the 911 GI bill, so I left the Army. I went to school and took a full load of science classes every semester to meet the prereqs for med school. I got several med school interviews. Med school interviewers did not care about my legal background. They were only interested in my background as a veteran. The legal background was a liability, because one interviewer knew the legal market was bad, and asked me if I gave up on law because of the poor job prospects. I received a scholarship from the great state school that I shunned as an undergrad, and I went there for med school. On a funny note, I applied for med school at the same toilet university I went to LS. The med school is unranked by US News, which doesn’t mean much. They didn’t even give me an interview. I laughed when I got a rejection from them, months after I heard from all of the other schools.

The scamblog message has gotten out. After I returned to college to take the science prereqs and while in med school, I met several students who read the scamblogs. They choose medicine over law because they knew law was in the toilet. One of my med school classmates got out of law too.

I am sharing my story for several reasons. 1) Do not attend any of the toilet law schools. The legal market was bad for grads of toilet law schools before the market supposedly crashed. And the market for toilet law grads is terrible now. 2) Do not attend an expensive, low ranked liberal arts college for the same reasons as #2. 3) If you made the same mistakes that I made or my friends made, it is possible to turn your life around. You don’t have to become a doc. I know a couple of JDs that saved themselves by getting an MBA. I know a JD that became a police officer. The lawyers in court tell my police officer friend all the time, that they made the right decision. They are making good money, with good benefits, and they will eventually get a pension. Everyone who has commented about the healthcare profession is correct. Hospitals employ ethicists, compliance officers, etc. These are jobs that you can look into if you are trying to overcome the burden of the JD.

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