Celebrating 10 years! 2007-2017

Are you charged in federal court for being on a federal reservation?

We live by a nearby reservation for which I have paid for a trijocker04/10/17
It would be federal, but I think you would have received a c fettywap04/10/17
Yes, but they could cite me next time I walk my dog there. I trijocker04/10/17
Yes. In my area there is a local federal magistrate and most onehell04/10/17
If you didn't get a citation than there's nothing to worry a isthisit04/10/17
Also, he has no right to detain, to arrest, etc. He has to w adamb04/10/17
Mostly true, but there are limitations. Security guards have onehell04/10/17
Addressing only the relevant issue: park rangers generally h adamb04/10/17
He was AFB Security Forces 96th Squadron, not a security gua trijocker04/10/17
MP is a whole different beast. (Why did you think he might b adamb04/10/17
I didn't think he was a park ranger looking for Yogi and Boo trijocker04/10/17
Yes - trespassing on a Military base, especially the ones wi adamb04/11/17
Not exactly a trespasser, I have a recreational permit that trijocker04/11/17
I was referencing your link. adamb04/11/17
trijocker (Apr 10, 2017 - 2:47 pm)

We live by a nearby reservation for which I have paid for a permit to walk on for recreational uses. Late yesterday we saw an AFB security guy unlock the gate and zoom up and ask what I was doing there, it was still light I was only a few hundred feet in. Many local neighbors don't even buy the permit, and just walk/hike or fish there anyways which I would call trespassing. Since it is wilderness we often hear shooting or weirdos going there after dark, coming out with large bags etc. Therefore I was surprised to be stopped when I had a dog and child with me, and did not appear to be a terrorist. Other neighbors say they have walked there for 20 years and never been stopped by security.

The guy seemed to take it personally when I asked him why he was stopping me and I said was an attorney. Can charges be brought at a later instance for trespassing on a federal reserve even though I have a pass?

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fettywap (Apr 10, 2017 - 2:49 pm)

It would be federal, but I think you would have received a citation on the spot if they wanted to ticket you.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2017 - 2:58 pm)

Yes, but they could cite me next time I walk my dog there. I seem to recall there was some sort of restriction about bringing a dog in a national park, that they could cite you for in certain areas of Yosemite.

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onehell (Apr 10, 2017 - 3:02 pm)

Yes. In my area there is a local federal magistrate and most of the cases he hears relate to stuff that happened in the nearby national park or on forest service lands. DUIs, illegal camping, speeding, all that stuff becomes a federal case. There is, essentially, a federal traffic court. There are also "park prosecutors" employed by dept. of the interior who function a lot like city/municipal prosecutors.

And yes, most cases are initiated when a law enforcement ranger issues you a citation, much like a traffic ticket. A security guard is probably not law enforcement and can't issue such a citation, but he could refer the matter to the appropriate authorities and you could get a summons in the mail, though it frankly isn't likely.

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isthisit (Apr 10, 2017 - 3:37 pm)

If you didn't get a citation than there's nothing to worry about. And yes, this would fall under federal jurisdiction since it occurred on federal land.

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adamb (Apr 10, 2017 - 3:45 pm)

Also, he has no right to detain, to arrest, etc. He has to wait for real police. Meanwhile, you can leave. Many people submit to fake cops or "security" because they do not know any better - the uniform and authoritative posturing tricks most people.

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onehell (Apr 10, 2017 - 3:48 pm)

Mostly true, but there are limitations. Security guards have the same rights to make a "citizens arrest" as anyone else. Also, "shopkeepers privilege" allows security to detain suspected shoplifters, which is why every mall has that "mall jail" room. So there are circumstances where a security guard might physically detain you, but they have to call the cops immediately and can only hold you until they arrive. There are also some places (hospitals, for example) that can hold people on a doc's orders because you're a danger to self or others.

Also, some places (nightclubs, for example) have been known to go so far as to hire off-duty cops and they of course are peace officers with full law enforcement powers whether they are on duty or not. And in some states, they have passed laws that allow HOAs to hire security firms that are given limited law enforcement powers and can drive cars with blue lights, pull people over inside the HOAs boundaries, and whatnot.

Oh, and depending on your state's general firearms laws and the policies of the employer, any security guard (just like any other private citizen) might or might not be armed. And these are minimally educated, low-paid meatheads. They are often very stupid but physically very strong. They're literally hired goons. They might not care all that much about legal nuances.

Point being, it can be hard to determine in the moment how much authority a security guard may or may not actually have, not to mention the question of whether they will abide whatever limits they are under. After all, being proven legally correct later won't unbreak your leg. So I say it's best to err on the side of caution with security guards. Just as you would with a cop, remain silent except to ask if you're free to leave. And if they do restrain you, go talk to a lawyer later about possible torts for false imprisonment/battery/etc., but don't try to litigate it in the moment or get into any kind of physical altercation with them.

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adamb (Apr 10, 2017 - 5:59 pm)

Addressing only the relevant issue: park rangers generally have no powers, and they will not physically touch you for trespass with a dog or even doing your latest trick in the woods. You can leave, run even. The guy is nothing more than a guy with a phone and a potential witness if the real cops actually come and actually find you. Never talk to them or show ID if they are irrational or little d*cks bitter about their lack of real authority. Most of them are fat, they cannot engage in even a high speed speed-walking. And they will not risk a lawsuit, a firing (most places, including shops, do not use physical force these days to restrain, they trick you into thinking they are real cops and tell you to come with them, which is why here in NY places like Target in poor neighborhoods dress their shrinkage staff in NYPD-looking uniforms with fake badge thingies).

Obviously, any crazy person can hurt you. No reason to "comply" as this can make matters worse, especially if you are not white.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2017 - 5:51 pm)

He was AFB Security Forces 96th Squadron, not a security guard.
Dude was armed heavily, wearing a kevlar vest, and his truck had rifles.

Just googling I found this response about going on an AFB trail...."Having worked at a air force base you would be arrested and detained by the MP's. you would get interrogated and then turned over to your local law enforcement agency."

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adamb (Apr 10, 2017 - 6:23 pm)

MP is a whole different beast. (Why did you think he might be a ranger?) They are real police. I grew up with the MPs. Good times.

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trijocker (Apr 10, 2017 - 7:17 pm)

I didn't think he was a park ranger looking for Yogi and Booboo.
He clearly had a big truck marked AFB Security and I posted "saw an AFB security guy unlock the gate and zoom up". People who answered in this thread inferred he was a Paul Blart type security guard, not a sworn law enforcement officer.

I think you must have thought I met he was a park ranger because I mentioned a ranger skiing up to us and stating to get our dog out of the national park, that was another instance some fifteen years ago.

At any rate I am both going through a background check for a job and bar fitness in another state so I cannot afford to get some federal trespass citation that is heard in U.S. District court from some eager beaver MP, so that is why I asked the question.

Here's a thread about a person trespassing on a military base, my situation is different as I had a pass to go on base, and was not taking anything.

https://forum.freeadvice.com/other-crimes-federal-state-4/trespass-military-base-448455.html

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adamb (Apr 11, 2017 - 9:29 am)

Yes - trespassing on a Military base, especially the ones with top secret aircrafts in the mojave desert, is serious.

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trijocker (Apr 11, 2017 - 11:47 am)

Not exactly a trespasser, I have a recreational permit that says DOD civilian for rec uses. That was why my question was framed whether I could be charged in the future when I have an AFB issued permit.

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adamb (Apr 11, 2017 - 1:22 pm)

I was referencing your link.

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